nm

I always thought "frog face" had more to do with the look of the eyes and brow (see picture from the breed standard on thebca.org below):

Maybe that "odd" froggy look around the eye and brow is caused by the short jaw as well? Or are there multiple flaws that work together to create the "frog face" appearance?

Thanks again for all the information on this site! I'm learning a ton!

That's very interesting.

"...conversation with a Bulldog breeder/judge this weekend that stated that they felt that this was the biggest crisis we currently have in Bulldogs is this very problem."

I'm shocked they put that about tracheas, palates, knees, hips, eyes... I never realized that a "frog face" was an issue before! All very interesting to learn.

Julia (pet owner)

very good point Brett. My article in the next Bulldogger is on type as a mtter of fact, and no, if the dog does not have a wide, square and undershot jaw that turns up at the end, his head is not typical for the breed. If you compare a dog to a frog (which is how the term frog faced originated) you can see that type is compromised in dogs like that.
Just because you see them and they win does not make them right. It is the fact that they are still so numerous that speaks directly to the laziness of the average american show breeder. No one wants to do anything different than the crowd, therefore, more and more frog faced dogs are out there and winning and worse.. accepted as "ok" and even worse, are bred to quite frequently.. and even line bred off of.
e

I'm still waiting for one with a perfect jaw. I just don't think we see enough of them and a bulldog isn't a bulldog without that great jaw. JMO

I guess if the rest of the dog is quite nice, its not too objectionable. I just think the Jaw is such an important part of what makes the Bulldog head look how it should.

To begin with the head & jaw are the beginning of the essence of type in a Bulldog. That said, a Bulldog with a frog face does not have type. We, my wife & I, had a conversation with a Bulldog breeder/judge this weekend that stated that they felt that this was the biggest crisis we currently have in Bulldogs is this very problem.

Brett

Really surprises me to see such success with the frog face.

Emily & Murphy
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Both of your boys are beautiful dogs as is too. I still think MacKenzie is one of the best looking bullies I've ever seen.

and if you look in the bulldog there is oneline that seems to finish all of those frog faced dogs. I'm with you on the length of jaw though. MacKenzie has more then your boy but not enough. My pet Norbert has great length in lower jaw, but not a nice head. To bad you can't take the piece's from one and add to another, LOL!

If you don't have the length of under jaw that is what causes the frog face just as E. stated. The width has nothing to do with it.
Kelly

I know it was an easy one, but I am a newbie and still have much to learn

Your definitely an asset to the site.

-Larkin

Its quite wide. I know my boy has more than enough faults, but this one has always been the one that bothers me the most. I just love bullies with the nice wide Jaws, with that nice upturn

His jaw is not long enough. A very common issue in many bulldogs.
Its hard to say how wide it is becuae it is being obscured by his chops.
e

You are absolutely correct. It is VERY important. My point is it all goes hand in hand for a complete dog. What good is a beautiful show specimen if he can't walk around the ring, or can't breathe? Think of good health and beauty as part of the whole package. My soap box is about those that are over zealous and lean way too too too far one way or the other.

You are on the right track, Julia!



ea

I do appreciate it.

Julia

I'm not a show person. I assumed health was important in showing.

Julia


No, you have it right.

I'm not a show person. I assumed health was important in showing.

Julia

I think just maybe you have heard one of my little lectures... or are they rants?

Good to see you here, Brett.

ea

Hi Elaine.

Yes, my comments are about conformation not health. This is not a health bulletin board it is a show board.

Brett

They were showing a really nice bitch. My wife and I liked that girl allot, but because they can win with just about anything, everyone assumed that all the dogs are bad.. And that's not the case at all..

Im assuming like most faults you have to work on it but how many generations will it take of very strong breeding to dogs with strong jaws.

If you have this problem with your dogs, i would guess you would work your butt off to fix it and as fast as you can. I would not continue to breed the same fault over and over and over....

Vicky, & The 3 B's & H

Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly

We've all shared your pain on that one Rod!

ea

no need to..

Bell has been killing the flowers.. You would think she would go in the grass like everyone else, but no, she goes on the flowers..

Great answer.....lol

Trust me.. I 'know'

Emily & Murphy
http://www.apacherunner.com
Visit our Website!
...and check out our pictures on Flickr!
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you are to funny!

Im not a flower person, i have brown thumbs.

:D

But I won't give you that answer..lol.. We competed against breeder/handler (all breed shows) with a frog face dog. He went up in the ranks, had many group placements, and if I not mistaken, might of even won best of show..The folks that were showing him have been doing this a long, long time, Emily.. This is how they make there living.. They bring many dogs with them and shell out allot of money when they showed.. They simply were supposed to win... Everyone knew it.. It wasn't a secret... Nobody was breeding to him... I haven't seen him awhile, thank God...But sometimes you just need to stop and smell the Flowers! Don't let it get to you.. Just keep doing what your doing, blow it off..lol Hell, it pissed me off each and every time it happen..lol

What I don't understand is why a dog with such a fault would be bred....?? I mean, we trained with Chubbs just to learn a bit about showing and possibly get him in the ring (Unfortunately his body never came around with substance and he's pretty long), but I knew that I would never even think of breeding him even if he was a great dog besides the jaw.

Of course, we still love him as nature created him.

..lack of breed type is the most serious fault a bulldog (or any breed of purebred dog) can have. Yet, it is the most vague concept to teach and get across to people.
e

nm

Once again for all the great information. I'm learning so much here!

If most are in consensus that a frog face is more than just a fault, it is an actual deviation from TYPE, then how can a frog faced dog POSSIBLY win in the ring?

This perpelexes me!

Emily & Murphy
http://www.apacherunner.com
Visit our Website!
...and check out our pictures on Flickr!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bulldogemily

by Scott
I always thought "frog face" had more to do with the look of the eyes and brow (see picture from the breed standard on thebca.org below):


Don't confuse "down faced" with "frog faced".
Frog faced dogs can have lovely back skulls, in fact many of them do these days.
Down face is when the nose sits too far down from the eye placement and there is no upturn to the muzzle at all.
The breed is "up faced"
e

Thanks.

Julia

I think he meant conformation specifically as opposed to health wise. Health issues are always a major concern to good breeders and it all rolls into the same package but, please correct me if I am wrong Brett, I took the comment to relate to their outward appearance only.

I could really get off on my health vs. conformation soap box here but I'll spare y'all, at least for now.

BTW, HI BRETT!


ea