I hope that our Daisy will do well also and be with us till the age of 11!

That's a good idea, thanks!

Hmm, maybe not. It sounded like if there was a problem the breeder would refund her cost or give us a puppy from an upcoming litter. I thought that she would take the puppy back, but I could be mistaken. I told dh that he needs to speak with her for the details, I'm not one to speak up.

Thanks!

that does seem odd, after you had time to become so attached that they would want the puppy back. Make sure you get that clarified.
What a tough decision you have!

Cathy
when she first came home

We have had 1 with a grade 1 murmur. We gave him away free of charge. Our Vet told us if we got even a quarter for him that we would be liable for his medical bills down the road if anything happened with his heart. This pup came from a Sire that was OFA Cardiac cleared and also the Dam was OFA Cardiac clear. It can happen, that's the thing about breeding dog's and genetic's, It's like a box of chocolates, Ya never know what you will get.

6 months of age....i would have some thing in writing if the murmmur does not go away by this age....it is often without a echo gram to tell the difference from a fast racing heart beat...puppy being nervouse new place new people..away from home...away from mom...the heart can skip...but it should be gone by 6 months....i would put in writing what will happen if the murmur does not go away...refund or what ever you two agree on....

for them to either put down or sell/rehome.

IMO if you are willing to keep the puppy and care for it with problems, they should let you keep it and give you another puppy in the future at no cost.

Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly

www.LangagerBulldogs.com

PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.

Thanks for all of your comments. We are still not 100% but are taking her home this weekend and to our vet next week. They are offering a refund/new puppy if it turns out to be more serious and does not resolve itself. Of course, that would mean we would have to return the puppy we have grown attached to and wait for a new puppy. They are not offering any discount, but would like us to have her mother (3 years old) since they do not plan to breed her anymore.

I guess we will see how it goes. This is worrisome but we are hoping for the best.

but I'm sure it's still heartbreaking to have a sick puppy.

Cathy
when she first came home

I considered making a stink over it, but decided that since I'm a 'nobody' and they are 'somebodies' it would be like pushing a chain uphill to have anything done about it. I chose to chalk it up to a 'learning experience' and to never have further dealings with them.

Sorry

Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly

www.LangagerBulldogs.com

PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.

for making you breed a dog with a known heart problem. It has happend before.

Very sad and not a good breeder or bulldogger.

Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly

www.LangagerBulldogs.com

PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.

lolololol......ain't no lie there!

That is what one of my Vets that breeds & shows Borzoi says 'Breeding Bulldogs isn't for the faint of heart' and I always added, under my breath, 'and not for the faint of wallet either!'

Obviously there needs to be openness and honesty right from the start, and evaluations along the way by knowledgable and trained professionals (cardiac/internal specialists). Your post is illuminating and thanks for sharing your story. Bulldogs are not for the faint-of-heart breeders!

I've had Bulldogs for 15+ years. During that time I've bought and kept about 10, and have had 10 litters with a total of 33 pups. So my experiences are spread over almost 50 Bullies of my own. Also I have raised about 10 litters of Bulldog pups for other breeders.
Then add in the other dogs I've had; a Peke mix, a Cocker Spaniel, a Shepherd mix and assorted strays, a few stray cats, then maybe 40 Rescue Bulldogs thru here too....
Like my mentor says - 'if you stay at this long enough, you will see everything'

with your pups!

Cathy
when she first came home

On this issue I have been on both sides, twice as a buyer and once as a breeder.

1st pup was bought from a very responsible breeder (that I have known for years) as a show prospect/breeding bitch. Her Vet had not detected any heart murmurs and I took the pup home at 9 weeks of age. At 12 weeks the pup went to my Vet for shots and a murmur was found. I contacted the breeder and we arranged an appointment with the Cardiology dept. at Ohio State University, found out the pup had some serious heart problems and the breeder paid for the Vet visit and took her back, eventually placing her with a family at a very reduced price, fully disclosing the problems. I don't know how long she lived.

2nd dog was bought at 13 months of age as a show/breeding prospect from a very well known breeder/judge pair. She had a slight murmur that WAS NOT disclosed to me and was vigorously denied by the breeder when I brought it to her attention. Part of the contract was to breed the bitch, which I didn't want to do, but was forcefully reminded of the contract. The breeding went badly, the lone pup was DOA and the bitch's heart murmur got much worse. When she was about 2 1/2 years old I had her spayed and placed her with a family for $200 (about 1/3 of what it cost me to spay her) and told the breeder to F**K OFF! when she got upset over what I'd done. The family only maintained contact with me for about a year after they got her, so I don't know how long she lived.

3rd pup was from a breeding of mine. He was the lone survivor from a litter of 4 and had a Grade 3 murmur detected at his initial Vet visit at 7 weeks of age. He had about 4 appointments with OSU Cardiology dept., and a bunch of tests done by the time he was 12 months old, and was on medication from about 8 weeks of age. There were 3 different heart issues he had, any 1 of which was considered to be ultimately fatal.
I had a gut feeling that things weren't right with him from the beginning and once I found out, I decided to keep him myself. In good conscience I could not place him with a family, even for free, knowing he would have a shortened lifespan and have a limited activity level. His heart murmur progressed to a Grade 5-6 by the time he was 13 months old. Then within a month he began to have behavioral and neurological issues associated with the heart problems and I had him put down when he was about 14 months old.
It was such a sad thing all around, but again, I would have felt even worse if it happened to a family the dog was placed with.
All this isn't meant to scare you off from taking the pup, but to make you aware of some of the things that could happen down the road.

It's past my bedtime, I will check back here tomorrow.

Thanks!

No, the breeder is not giving a discount for the puppy. Out of the 3 breeders I've been in contact with (referrals from the Bulldog Club of America list) this was the most expensive breeder/puppy. She believes the murmur will resolve itself and has offered a heart guarantee although I'm not sure what they means exactly. Thank you for commenting, I am interested in what everyone thinks.

I don't like the fact that the breeder thinks it's common in bulldogs. I've never had a dog with a murmur but you should definitely have a good bulldog Vet if not a cardiologist exam this pup to find out exactly what you are dealing with. Good luck!

as the puppy grows things grow at different rates, if the puppy has or doesnt have a murmur at 8 weeks it may develope one at 9 or it may go away. It depends on how the dog develops and how fast the heart grows and how the valves grow with it.


As a breeder i have had 1 puppy with a puppy murmur, she also had very bad pneumonia and things were developing and growing at different rates. I held on to her until she was healthy 6 months, had her spayed and placed at a very very reduced cost. All her problems had resolved by 6 months.

I would ask that the breeder cover testing on the puppy at a certain age to see if its closed or open, if by 6 months the murmur has not resolved they should refund a percentage of the money.

I have known breeders who sold a puppy with a grade 3 murmur. The buyer was told that if the dog lived less then 5 years and died of heart problems the puppy would be replaced. Every year after 5 the breeder took off like 100.00. Well when the puppy/dog died at 11yo they said i guess we will have to buy another dog from you.



Vicky,
Bosco, Bella, Breve' & Holly

www.LangagerBulldogs.com

PHOTOS ARE PROPERTY OF LANGAGER BULLDOGS, YOU MUST HAVE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR ANY USE OF THESE PHOTOS FROM LANGAGERBULLDOG.

that asking alot of questions and getting everything down on paper or on a recorder is the safest way to ensure that you dont get burned.
Being this is a BCA member my guess is that they will provide you with information on heart murmurs. And by all means PLEASE do your own reserach as well in the meantime. Discuss with the breeder the what if's/ what if this doesnt resolve? I know of several, well bred dogs with grade 1 or 2 heart murmurs who have lived ut wonderful lives in pet homes. But they also were aware of the precautions on living with a dog with a heart murmur. Diet, limited exercise, medications etc.
If a heart murmur is not resolved one often has to wonder, are thier other under lying issues? ie some type of stenosis along the heart valves.
Will the breeder compensate you if this does not resolve itself by a certain age?

Ask what the health guarentee covers? Most state they do not cover, palates, cherry eye, entropian or other similar brachy syndrome issues. And they will state that they do cover the dog for 1 year against any genetic health defects- this would be a heart murmur. So again, ask if this is the case and will they provide you with written information that states that they are knowingly selling you a dog that has been diagnosed with a heart murur. Cover you bases for you adn your dogs protections, regardless of who they are!

best of luck with your new puppy!


Rhiann @ Butlerbullz

murmur and the owners don't know about it before purchase. Lets start by saying that this breeder has been honest (hopefully completely so)in giving you this information. I do think it needs to be verified by your own veterinarian before 'the deal is sealed' and you should also talk about how this might affect the purchase agreement insofar as health guarantees/replacement pup is concerned. Don't be shy about asking questions...get it all out in the open now and put things in writing to protect both parties, and of course, this dog as well. I would also expect that this dog is sold on "AKC Limited Registration" and I would talk with the vet about his/her assessment regarding spay/neuter surgery, when it should be done and if there are great concerns about anesthesia at this time...we can only give our best estimate about the future.

As for sales price, that is an 'open field' and what one person may say who has not bred nor sold puppies may differ greatly from those who were in that position. I would think that if the price is in-line with other healthy pups sold in your area, with Limited Registration and similar bloodlines, etc. that any discount greater than 10-20% would be generous. This pup may well outgrow a slight murmur and it may not hinder its development nor life expectancy with reasonably careful lifestyle. My opinions.